Police at work
March 17, 2006
This morning I observed Armenian police at work at the intersection of Orbeli and Baghramian. They were working! I mean I am not trying to be sarcastic but it was a fantastic scene really. There were officers in the middle of the street, directing traffic. And while the traffic was pretty heavy at 9am on Baghramian, their efforts were actually helping the cars move along quicker. I was delighted to see this and it made me think, well maybe there is some hope after all. If police did their jobs, there actually is law and order. You can’t really be so negative about everything ALL the time, now can you…
As a measure to fight against the corruption among Armenian police, they were given a salary increase of about 40% back in 2005. The incentive is that this salary increase is supposed to decrease the probability of police taking bribes and receiving the bills with Charents on it (1,000 tram), the typical amount which citizens pay them in order to avoid any legal actions. Interestingly enough, these same actions were taken in Georgia by the beloved Misha or President Mikhail Saakashvilli, for those of us who do not refer to him in such an endearing way. (This is actually how the Georgians refer to their president). As soon as President Saakashvilli came into office back in 2004, he fired the entire police staff and increased their salaries. Now it is said that Georgia has a police force which is hardly corrupt at all and people actually respect them for their positions. It was of course quite a courageous move on behalf of Saakashvilli at the time, but these efforts will surely go a long way for the country’s future.
Update Regarding Police at Work
In regards to the question about the salaries of the police in Armenia, I would like to state the following. It turns out that after speaking to some local police officers, they do not make between $300-400. While there was a 40% pay increase for them in 2005, the average police officer does not earn this much. However, it turns out the more senior and higher officers are making this amount. In addition, I also inquired about the military and the higher military officers are also making this amount as well. (A friend who is a soldier in the Armenian army mentioned this information. Thus I would like to say that this piece of information is from an unconfirmed source.)
Thus, I am retracting this sentence from the article that they are making $300-400. Should I find a resource that does confirm this, I will post it then. However, until then and since I have heard from the Armenian police that this is not the amount the average cop is making, then I have decided to retract this statement.
Unfortunately, trying to figure information out about the military and police institutions is rather difficult considering they are not the most transparent institutions. This of course is my opinion but some may disagree with me. After all of the bribes the police and the military officers receive, I bet these individuals are making enough money for them to “get by”.
With that said, I apologize for the misinformation that was presented in this article. I would also like to personally thank Onnik for being so persistent and consistent in pursuing the correct figures regarding this information. I misunderstood my source and confirmed that in fact it is the higher level police officers who do make approximately this much money.
Also with that being said, I would like to state that I am not a journalist nor am I aiming to be one. The goal of ArmYouth is really to present information that is from Armenia and particularly from the youth. While I myself am not a local Armenian youth, I am a young Armenian person and am trying my best to present another perspective about things happening in Armenia. I hope this is understandable and will work to be more careful in providing the exact references in the future. We all make mistakes in life and learn from them, no? I have most certainly learned my lesson from this article. I apologize for any inconvenience.
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1.
Zarchka | March 17, 2006 at 6:52 pm
Tamar, its funny because today I had the same thoughts about Georgian Police when I was on my way to classes. It was 8:30 and a policeman wan controlling the traffic on Nalbandyan and Khanjyan. At first I wondered that he was doing his job perfectly, unless I noticed that all that was just a demonstration ceremony for a black Hummer to pass, on which one of the authorities was probably enjoying his relax. And two more police cars were accompanying it. Perhaps your case was also such a parading, and just you didnt stay to see what would happen later?
.okoklets be optimists
And yes, perhaps the only thing I liked in Georgia was its police, which was not hiding under a tree, but was roaming about the city, not afraiding to waste fuel..
2.
Global Voices Online &raq&hellip | March 18, 2006 at 4:33 am
[...] ArmYouth Blog reports that pay increases for police that went into effect last year might actually be having the intended, positive effect of reducing corruption. [...]
3.
Onnik Krikorian | March 18, 2006 at 11:36 am
The problem with corruption in the police force is not that cops take bribes to supplement their income. Instead, what happens is that the money is passed on to the person above them who then passes it above them and so on all the way to the top. For sure, traffiic police will get something from it all, but as it is part of the system I am skeptical that anythign has changed at all. Certainly, I have seen no sign of reduced police corruption, and in fact, in the past year I think I’ve begun to notice it more.
Regarding salaries they must have done this very quietly because I can’t remember any news items about this fact. However, I would like to know more about this pay rise and think that if there’s any news items where you read this it would be a good idea and a great help to post links to news about this.
Anyway, from time to time the police do do their job, but only when they have to. Sorry to skeptical, but I believe that this was one of those instances. I certainly see no signs of a concerted effort to stamp out corruption in any area of life in Armenia, except maybe the easy targets such as hospitals and schools, and even then…
4.
Onnik Krikorian | March 18, 2006 at 5:48 pm
Ok, well i found the link to the report you saw on salaries being increased by 40 percent.
http://www.interethnic.org/EngNews/301104_3.html
However, i do think you should indicate the source of that information just as you would in an academic paper or analytical article. In this case, you should of because you also used images from the article.
It also helps validate information and backs up a case especially in the case of Armenia when so much disinformation is disseminated.
However, although the article makes reference to a 40 percent pay rise, there is no mention of the actual salary police receive. I find it hard to believe that salaries are this high in a country where the average salary in Yerevan stands at $100 per month, and especially as in neighboring Georgia, police receive only $200 per month which was achieved by cutting the number of police by two thirds.
Anyway, if the salary is indeed this high in Armenia, could you please post a link to your source, and it would be helpful if you could do this in the future for other references. Thanks.
5.
Oneworld Multimedia :: No&hellip | March 18, 2006 at 10:23 pm
[...] Meanwhile, Tamar at Armyouth says that she thinks the Armenian traffic police might be shaping up and doing their job instead of waving down motorists for on the spot “unofficial fines” which can basically be categorized under the heading of corruption. Although salaries have indeed been increased by 40 percent, I still find it hard to believe that they’ve now reached over $300-400 a month. It has to be said that bloggers should really include links to reputable sources to back up what they say. This morning I observed Armenian police at work at the intersection of Orbeli and Baghramian. They were working! I mean I am not trying to be sarcastic but it was a fantastic scene really. There were officers in the middle of the street, directing traffic. And while the traffic was pretty heavy at 9am on Baghramian, their efforts were actually helping the cars move along quicker. I was delighted to see this and it made me think, well maybe there is some hope after all. If police did their jobs, there actually is law and order. You can’t really be so negative about everything ALL the time, now can you… [...]
6.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 9:05 am
Can you please name your source for salaries in the police force. I have just spoken to a journalist at RFE/RL and am told that salaries are still low (although higher) and start at 30,000 drams a month. Some of the most SENIOR officers ight receive as much as $500 / month.
If you know differently, please refer your readers to your source. You cannot make such statements when they sound highly unlikely and are not backed up by facts through links or the naming of the source of your information.
Otherwise, Armyouth will lose any chance of gaining credibility as a source of information from Armenia.
7.
armyouth | March 20, 2006 at 9:29 am
Wow Onnik please do give me a chance to respond. You have written at least three comments on the site, I understand your request. I will work to get the reference information which you requested. I apologize I only have internet access right now on weekdays and not on the weekends.
8.
armyouth | March 20, 2006 at 11:20 am
This figure that I had learned police officers were making $3-400 per month is not something I pulled out of the air. I had learned of this information from a local Armenian person who works with the police but has asked to remain anonymous.
Upon inquiring with my colleagues from CSI, they told me they were aware that officers at the Deputy level within the Police Department are making approximately $3-400 per month. As for the rest of the officers, they all make different salaries of course depending on their positions, their seniority as well as other factors. CSI has many programs in which it is working with the Ministry of Justice Department, Police Department as well as a specific program dedicated to penitentiary system reform. Thus, they are relatively familiar with issues within the police department. Please visit the website for more information regarding the different activities. http://www.csi.am And if you are still interested in obtaining even more information, there is literature available at the CSI office.
This process of providing reference information of who said exactly what is also frustrating. The Ministry of Justice Dept. is not exactly the most transparent institution within the government. It is also even more frustrating because I cannot provide you with the resource so quickly. The person who would be considered a legitimate source has just left the country for a couple of weeks for a conference. Thus, an exact reference for this is not something I can provide you with immediately but will do so as soon as I get my hands on it.
With that said, I would like to point out that I still believe the source I had learned this information from is a legitimate one. As I cannot provide you with the exact website link or news story about this or even reference information about this right now, I will edit the statement and say it is hearsay for now. That is, until I can provide you with the exact resource of this information.
I hope this helps. In the meantime, I will do my best to get this information.
9.
armyouth | March 20, 2006 at 11:50 am
Also, wanted to provide this link of an interview with the Head of Analytical Department of Georgian Ministry of Interior. They refer to issues regarding corruption in police in Georgia as well as police salaries.
http://www.caucasusjournalists.net/ENG/interview.asp?idinterview=65
10.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 11:53 am
The salary of police officers in Armenia will not average $300-400 a month, and if CSI is working on such issues, you should be able to categorically state how much it is without any problem at all. I do not believe your source unless you can find me a specific reference and I would suggest that you are more careful and / or factual in the future.
11.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 11:55 am
btw: i could however believe that police officers are averaging $300-400 a month if that includes their share of the money taken in bribes off motorists. However, that would kind of contradict the general premise of your post.
12.
armyouth | March 20, 2006 at 12:02 pm
No, actually CSI does not work on the issue regarding police salaries. I mentioned that CSI works WITH the police and pentitentiary system. The reason why they were able to mention such figures is because they were told directly by officer at the deputy level through meetings and other gatherings.
For example, I remember a trip in which we were meeting with the Head of the Nubarashen prison and he started to complain about the salaries of the workers of the prisons. The reason why I bring up this example is because these are the types of meetings in which one encounters information like this. They are not officially stated anywhere of course, thus it is oral confirmation about the conditions of the prison workers.
13.
armyouth | March 20, 2006 at 12:04 pm
This is all very understandable. Again, I will seek to confirm the source and exact figure and exactly where the $3-400 comes from. In the meantime, I will leave this point as an unconfirmed source within the article.
14.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 12:16 pm
Tamar, the article you linked to refered to salaries for middle level officers receiving hundreds of dollars a month in Georgia. However, these are not the police that you refer to in your post. We are talking about our fat cop standing on the side of the road. I’m told salaries start from 30,000 drams month ($65-70) whereas in Georgia it’s $200 per month.
However, your source could have been referring to more senior officers of the type you do NOT refer to in the article, but again that contradicts the premise in the first place and it certainly is incorrect to say that the average salary in the Armenian police is $300-400 a month, especially for the cops you wrote about who direct traffic.
Unless, of course, you can prove me wrong. Certainly, given that it is possible to find out such information you should be able to post more on this quite easily and realtively quickly.
15.
armyouth | March 20, 2006 at 12:28 pm
I know which police officers the article makes reference to. I thought it would be interesting in general since I do mention Georgia in the article as well.
16.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 12:40 pm
This is from what looks like a 2003 article, but even so, it is very unlikely that salaries have increased past 30,000 drams in most cases even with the 40 percent pay rise you mention.
bockquote>One official from the STI, who wanted to stay anonymous, said that inspectors stand in the streets for hours for a salary of about $35 a month (only about $25 until this year). Consequently, they cannot live without accepting bribes.
http://www.armenianow.com/archive/2004/2003/january31/features/policingthepolice/index.htm
The average salary for most government workers is now around $70 and I doubt that your average joe cop is any different — officially at least. Also, Georgia needed to cut the number of police by one third partly in order to be able to increase salaries and as far as I am aware, nothing like this has happened in Armenia.
In addition, unless something has changed since interviewing the head of Transparency International Armenia, there is not even a mention of corruption in the police in the Government’s “Anti-Corruption” strategy.
17.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 12:42 pm
by two-thirds, sorry
18.
Onnik Krikorian | March 20, 2006 at 12:50 pm
Interestingly, salaries for the police in Azerbaijan were increased last year as well, but it should be remembered that the number of police in countries is quite high. There were 60,000 police in Georgia until Saakashvili slashed it down to 20,000.
Anyway, if indeed the salaries of the traffic police have been increased to a level higher than in Georgia without a reduction in their number, I’d like to know where the local media is in reporting this…
Until I see some concrete details — as are available quite easily in Azerbaijan and Georgia — I once again have my doubts about the effectiveness and ability of civil society in Armenia.
19.
amanda | March 21, 2006 at 6:26 am
I do not believe the salary of the cop has anything to do with corruption. I live in Los Angeles.
The Los Angeles Police Department is hated by many people. Starting pay for a police officer is at least $40,000 USD a year. The police brutalise people and shoot civilians. Every month a new scandal surfaces. The most famour is the “Rampart Scandal.”
The behavior of the police is what creates corruption. The LAPD has no independant internal review system. The police have connections in the courts and with organised crime.
The LAPD is actually worse than any police force in Armenia. In Armenia, the police are only interested in money. In Los Angeles, the police frequently beat people without even asking for money. Many of the police officers are young people who derive pleasure from power and violence.
You don’t believe me? Start asking Armenians or minority people who live in Los Angeles about the LAPD…
The way to reform the police is through behavior and training. Violence and corruption should not be glorified. Hooligans should not be hired.
20.
armyouth | March 21, 2006 at 9:13 am
In regards to your comment about the LAPD cops, I could not help but post that your words reminded me about the movie “Crash”. Many of you may be familiar with this movie, as it won an Oscar this past year. It shows the problems and specifically racism within this institution that you speak so poorly about, Amanda. If you have not watched this movie, I recommend it highly.
21.
amanda | March 23, 2006 at 3:41 am
I have not seen crash yet. I recommend you see the movie, “Falling Down.” You should also see a new movie: “Dirty”. This movie is about LAPD who rob and brutalise people.
Please recognise that the LAPD brutalise people of all races. Racism is actually a very tiny motive. The LAPD derive pleasure from beating and stealing from people who CANNOT FIGHT BACK. This is a very important factor of police violence within Los Angeles.
I have family members who are police. My relatives in the police are bad people. They derive pleasure from tormenting people of all races.
The LAPD training basically teaches officers: all civilians and non-government people are useless and stupid. LAPD consider it ok to rob or beat: if the person has no connections to protect themselves.
Racism/homophobia is not the issue. There are many black, armenian, mexican, chinese, gay/lesbian LAPD. Actually the LAPD wants more nonwhites, because they can use them to infiltrate and attack people who cannot speak English. LAPD are taught to ignore ethnic/gender issues BUT attack all non-police. A black police will have no problem with attacking a black civilian. A black and a lesbian police will gladly attack a mexican. THE MAIN ISSUE IS “us against them.” LAPD teaches that police are all important, but civilians are useless.
Currently, LAPD is recruiting many mexican gang members and armenians to join. I hope you understand that LAPD is basically a gang.